00:00 You’re listening to the live happier, longer podcast, episode 36
00:15 welcome to the live happier, longer podcast. We’re your hosts, Molly Watts and Angela McDade. We are here to help you build the habits of a happier and longer life starting now.
00:37 Hey Angela. Hey Molly. How are you doing this fine morning? I am enjoying the sunshine. I am too, right? Oh, it’s gorgeous. We talked about the sun a lot, don’t we? Well, we’re Oregonians. And for those of you that don’t understand, we are somewhat sun deprived often here in the northwest. So I’m so excited about this podcast. Uh, it was a long time in the, in, in the planning, in the making. Yeah. Because who we’re talking to today is someone that’s very well known in the scientific realm for discussions about aging. Yes. Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Doctor Emily Rogalski. She is a neuroscientist and is the associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Northwestern University’s Feinberg School of medicine. Yes. And we’ve decided that she has a job that we would both be jealous of. I am jealous of. Yes, I have. I really want her job.
01:22 She has been working for the last 10 years on a study about superagers and we’re going to dive into that with her. But really she gets to spend a lot of time with people who are over the age of 80 who are just brilliant examples of living a happier longer life. Yeah. Yeah. We want to claim that they probably all have been doing our five daily actions, but scientifically speaking, I don’t really think that that we can, we can say it for sure. Well you never know. After the next batch of research they might say, hey, you guys were right. Do you think so? You think maybe, well, we know that Dr Rogalski is doing some fantastic, amazing, yes, amazing science and uh, just appreciated being able to spend time talking with her about it. Here’s our conversation with Doctor Emily Rogalski.
02:11 Good morning Dr Rogalski. Good morning.
02:12 Good morning. Thank you for having me.
02:16 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. And is that okay if I, if I call you Emily from now on, I feel it’s like, you know, want to?
02:25 Awesome. Perfect. So we have just given kind of a brief overview of your background, your position there at Northwestern, and a very brief description of your focus and your study on super agers. But let’s talk and dive deeper into that. First off, let’s talk about what a super ager is in terms of clinical study, what you guys are, what is the basis for your study at Northwestern?
02:54 Sure, sure. And I think it’s helpful to maybe get a little background of where I’m situated.
02:58 The Why?
03:01 And like how did we get here and we didn’t pull it out of thin air. But there’s, um, a little background there. So I’m a neuroscientist by training and I’m situated in the Mesulam Center for cognitive neurology and Alzheimer’s disease here at Northwestern university, Feinberg School of medicine. And, oh boy. Is that a mouthful?
03:18 Yeah. I’m glad you said it. Not me.
03:22 So, let me break that down too and say, that just means that we do aging and dementia research here and, but really from the lens of what’s healthy, what’s going right in the brain and what’s going wrong in the brain when we think about aging and dementia. So in a, in a nutshell, that’s our focus and the research that we do is to better understand how the brain is working or how it’s not working well, and then how can we identify things that will help people have better lives, right? So avoid disease and disability. And so from that perspective is really where we launch into that. Um, and so in that vein, we’re a nationally funded Alzheimer’s Disease Center and there’s about 32 of these that are funded right now across the country. And one of the things we do is we follow individuals who are healthy and individuals who have a diagnosis of dementia. And when we think about that aging research, unfortunately most of the news that comes out in the media, or that’s I’m looked at scientifically talks about the bad things that happen as we age. So we compare older individuals to younger individuals and time after time we see that on average memory goes down when we compare older individuals to younger individuals or if we’re talking about exterior features of our body, we see that on average as we get older, our skin tends to to wrinkle and our hair tends to turn grey or fallout and more commonly when we’re older than versus when we were younger.
04:50 And just like that, um, we see that changes to the brain tend to occur more frequently, more older than versus were younger. Now, while all of this is true, if it was true for everyone, then we wouldn’t have any variation in aging. And you would know what somebody is like. Um, just by knowing their chronologic age or knowing that they’re 80 years old. So then you must look like this and we know that people don’t fit in those boxes. Um, and in fact there’s a lot of variation. And the idea came from really looking at performance of individuals and saying, hey, there seem to be some people who are avoiding memory loss. And wouldn’t it be important to know how they’re doing this and uh, what factors are really most important there? Yeah. So is it possible to defy the common trajectory of losing some of our thinking abilities and what are those factors?
05:46 And we think that those factors then are important for reducing stigma around aging and realizing that our expectations can be a little bit better in aging. So if the expectation is that you must lose memory, then when we experienced that first forgetful moment, then the next forget full moment is I’m going to be even more expected if that’s right.
06:10 And also like, I mean, I’m sure that there’s gotta be something in your thought process when you’re analyzing all of this as if we can figure this out, people are going to want to know. Right. I want to know, I mean, I’m sure that there is no, you know, special answer right yet, but that if we can figure out what these people are doing to not show the typical signs, if they are not typical or atypical, are they doing something different? Is it, are they making that happen for themselves?
06:41 Right. And, and I think, um, that’s where we take, um, a multifaceted approach to understanding this. So we’re not looking just through the lens of genetics, which is certainly important. We’re not looking just through the lens of what is their brain structure look like, but we’re considering both biological and psycho-social and lived experiences and how all of these things and so are working together in concert. And so where can we identify these factors and different pieces of your life and how do they interact or integrate with each other? And we’re really at the early stages of these studies at the beginning rather than the end. But already we’ve found a lot of exciting things. And I guess one other thing to point out is we also see this as a really helpful way for understanding Alzheimer’s disease. So one way to look at all Alzheimer’s disease is to identify people who are experiencing memory loss and say, okay, well what’s happening? What’s going wrong with the brain? And how do we fix it?
07:46 We’ve learned that that approach, uh, through that approach, Alzheimer’s disease is incredibly complex and we’ve yet to find a cure or a treatment. And so sometimes when we have a complex problem, it’s good to kind of turn it on its head and look from a different vantage point. We think super agers give that unique vantage point to say, okay, instead of looking at what’s going wrong with the brain, let’s look at people who’ve avoided memory loss and see what we can glean from them. And that might lead to new hypotheses and new studies that we can kind of investigate to see their relevance. And I think it’s less about finding the silver bullet. The one thing that allows you to do this, um, because I think it’s unlikely to be one thing for everybody. Um, I think we’ve all taken a, by the time we’re 80, we’ve had a lot of life experiences. And so the way you’ve lived well or, or not depends on the, uh, you know, accumulation of all of those experiences. So understanding though critical factors that can play a role, um, will allow us to really stack up as many protective factors as we can and minimize as many risk factors as we can. And so we want to stack the deck in the protective factors side.
09:00 Absolutely. Absolutely. And that’s something that we’re very much hoping that there are those protective factors that we can all build into our lifestyle and into our habits. And not that it can offset necessarily everything that is, yeah. Genetic or, but just as you said, can stack the deck in our favor. Right. So, so superagers let’s talk about those and what they, who they are and what does that mean in terms of your study?
09:27 Sure, absolutely. So getting back to superagers, who are they? How did you know? So we had this theoretical idea of we want to find these people who are aging better than expected, but then as science says, we’ve got to put rules around that so that we can conduct proper studies. And so the rules that we’ve had around the entrance criteria for superagers are that they have to be over age 80. And this is particularly important because the biggest risk factor, it turns out for memory loss and for Alzheimer’s dementia is merely getting older. So that outweighs every, um, a genetic risk factor that we know it’s getting older is that strongest risk factor. So by identifying people who are over age 80 but that have memory performance at least as good as individuals in their fifties and sixties or the expected range for 50s and 60s, we see people who are at the greatest risk and they’ve been able to overcome it.
10:24 And so this represents a really kind of rare segment of the population. And I think that’s important because when they do have something in common across the group, then it’s more likely to be meaningful or actionable or have some, some greater impact down the road. And so that’s the group that we look at. And then we’ve started to explore, are we able to find them once we put these rules in place, of course we would. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be here chatting with you. Um, and then, you know, the next question we ask is really simple. I just said, well, if they are 80 years old, but they have memory at least as good as 50 year olds, what do there, what does their brain structure look like? Does it look more like an 80 year old who they share the passage of time with or chronology?
11:09 Or does it look more like a 50 year old who they kind of share their memory performance with? And it turns out that the answer to that question is that they looked more like the 50 year old brains, at least in the outer layer of the brain that we call the cortex. And it was through this study that we identified a, uh, an extra surprise. And that was for a region of the anterior cingulate, which is kind of buried deep in your brain. It was actually thicker in the superagers than it was in the 50 to 60 year olds. So this gave us some clue that maybe, um, anatomically or location wise in the brain that this region might be important. Um, so because of the design of our study, we were able to then follow that up. Individuals who are enrolled in the super aging study are followed throughout their lifespan and then asked to donate their brains at the time of death.
11:58 And this might sound a little bit creepy at first. Um, and I’m uncomfortable to talk about, but it’s really critical because the tools that we have to look at the brain during life are kind of like the original digital cameras that came out where we were very excited because we didn’t have to go take our film to the local drugstore and we could take as many pictures as we wanted to. But when we looked at those pictures on the back of the screen, immediately they looked pretty good. And then when we printed them out on our printers, all of a sudden they became very pixelated and flux style. So we couldn’t see with as great a detail as we wanted to. That’s kind of the tools that we have right now is we can’t see with as great a detail as we can when we look under the microscope. At the time of death. And so these individuals who donate their brains really give the ultimate gift by allowing us to understand the mechanisms related to aging dementia in a very different way. We did this for the superagers and looked in that anterior cingulate region. We found that there was a type of cell called von Economo neurons that were more abundant in superagers than in normal agers. So now we’ve had a structural finding and also a cellular finding. And so that was worked on by colleagues in, in the lab Tamar Gefen and Changiz Geula. Um, and has kind of spurred additional studies. So an exciting time. Yeah.
13:23 Yeah. Just like you said, like you’re really at the tip of the iceberg. Honestly. We’ve done a lot of research in terms of investigating and reading your findings and other people’s findings all in this, in neuroscience alone. And what we’re learning about the brain, even in the last 20 years compared to what we knew prior to that is just remarkable. I mean, I think it was prior to the two thousands that people didn’t believe that the brain continued to keep growing or adding new cells or it’s neuroplasticity that you could literally, that it stopped at a certain point and now we know that that’s not true, that the brain continues to grow and thrive. It can be a matter of use it or lose it kind of, you know, I think there’s some, certainly some evidence there, but the fact is, is that people’s brains continued to develop it right up until the end.
14:15 Right, right. Absolutely. And I think, yeah, the idea around neuroplasticity and the opportunities that are there. And so instead of, you know, using the phrase, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks that we’re born with, all of the brain cells that we’re ever going to have and all that can happen is that were, you know, killing them is, it’s pretty tragic of, uh, you know, it’s a pretty gloomy picture. So it’s, it’s certainly exciting. All of the work that has been done around neuroplasticity and the opportunity that is there. Um, so I think the next thing to do is change those expectations and the stigma around aging and thinking that I’m looking more at the possibilities instead of inevitabilities that only way to go is down.
15:02 So you talked a little bit about a shared traits or shared similarities, some things amongst the superagers. Talk with us a little bit more about that. Some of the things that you saw that across this group. A common thing. Yeah, a common trait.
15:18 Sure, sure. So, um, a lot of that work again, we’re still on the early days, but one of the things that we’ve seen is, um, we gave them a, a measure of psychological wellbeing and we found in this survey that compared to, again, healthy 80 year olds that the superagers endorsed stronger positive relationships with others. And so again, we’re kind of at the tip of the iceberg to know, well, what does that mean do that? Do they have more friends on average? Do they have closer friends? And we kind of need to dig into and understand or it may really just depend on the personality of the person. So some individuals really thrive by being in large social settings and other individuals are a bit more introverts who it’s, it might be more important to have that single close tie relationship. And so we don’t have the data yet at the individual level of what, how the superagers were actually doing this. But we do know that they tend to report on average stronger social relationships with others.
16:24 Um, and so this fits perfectly and with lots of other research that’s been done in this area, talking about the negative consequences of loneliness and the negative consequences, whether you’re a healthy individual and experiencing loneliness or an individual with a diagnosis of dementia or another disorder, we know that loneliness is bad and, and can accelerate medical problems no matter the setting, whether you start or you’re starting at a healthy spot or you’re starting at a spot where you have more medical complications. And it also speaks to some studies that have talked about the protective factors associated with maintaining strong social relationships. The nice part about this finding is that it’s not about genetics where we’re saying, oh gosh, I picked the wrong parents. Right. That we can think about today, that if I’m, you know, I’m on my way home from work and walking home, maybe I should call my best friends and then that might make me feel good, but it might also have some positive benefit for my brain too. So it’s not about just about my, you know, my emotional health actually has something to do potentially with my brain health so we made a link there.
17:36 Yeah. And we’ve actually, as we mentioned to you, we, we focus on five daily actions all backed by science that have been proven to increase longevity and improve overall happiness, wellbeing. And that social connection is actually proven to help, um, increased longevity and, and not just in terms of your brain health, but just in, you know, it all. And like I said, that that longevity factor as well. I know another, I think I heard you mentioned before, previously on something else, I listened to, um, a shared kind of and this again may be more anecdotal in terms of what they’ve talked about. I don’t know how much if it is data driven yet, but an attitude of resilience.
18:20 Yeah. So this is one that we’ve done some smaller studies on, but have yet to report in a really robust way scientifically. But it’s certainly an observation. So I think I’m an easy potential criticism is of the study is people often ask, well, are these individuals, did they just have easy lives? Are these individuals who have not really had any hardships per se or maybe they have high socioeconomic status. We really don’t find that. We find that there’s quite a diversity and many of these individuals have experienced hardships in their life, whether that was individuals who were a part of the Holocaust and lost family members. There are individuals who lost their children at a young age or spouses or struggled from a financial standpoint, um, in their childhood or, or even in their later years. Um, and I think.
19:12 Disease potentially people.
19:14 Yes. And so everyone has a choice throughout their life. When you’re experiencing these things would be very easy to take these experiences and continue to look at all of the negative consequences that come about them. And it seems like these individuals have made a choice to be resilient and to find the good in life. And so we’re working on some projects that to explore this in a, in a variety of ways, but don’t have quite, we don’t have those data out quite yet.
19:43 Yeah, yeah. But, uh, yes, like I said, so anecdotally more than anything, but I think that’s something that we’ve definitely, and the people that we’ve spoken to, and they’re not necessarily defined a super agers in your textbook yet, but we’re seeing similar traits. I mean, people that are achieving that kind of the longer life and the happier life and there’s definitely not that they’ve just had an easy life, but that they’ve developed an attitude and a mindset that allows them to frame their lives in a way that is optimistic and, and positive or you know, that they, it’s more about how the deal with the situation than the situation itself.
20:26 Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, you know, that goes a long way in just how you might contribute in life in general too. So some of the superagers are still working, um, at their occupations, but, but others of them are volunteering, right? So they’re staying active by giving back in a different way, maybe not in there, you know, so their, yeah,
20:48 the traditional job,
20:50 but there’s, there’s certainly, um, staying active in that way and, and giving back to society. So they’re their altruism to participate in research. Um, and then also to give back to society in other ways. It’s truly remarkable.
21:03 I have to say I’m kind of, I mean beyond the fact that I love that I have got this huge interest in neuroscience now that’s really developed over our, um, in the last couple of years with our research for five for life. But you’ve got a great job getting to work with these, you know, with, um, I got to imagine it’s pretty rewarding. Uh, not just, uh, on not just the science level, but on a personal level. Just your interactions with the, you’re getting to interact with these people, which must be pretty darn amazing.
21:35 I feel incredibly fortunate to have this opportunity. Um, you know, the wisdom that these individuals have and their attitudes and funny stories and quirks and um, it’s really enjoyable. And it was a few years ago, um, well I guess several years ago now that I’m so glad that the superagers did this. They kept bugging me about we need a party, get together. And I said, oh gosh, well we don’t really have that kind of infrastructure usually with a study. Um, but we sorted out how to do that and now we’ve had three get togethers, um, over the course of the past 10 years or where we’ve got the superagers together for, um, the opportunity for them to meet each other, which I think has been really rewarding. And then selfishly, um, it’s been a great opportunity for me. It’s a get to spend some time with them outside of a traditional research setting and to see and interact with them in that way is, is really been special. So I’m appreciative of also their willingness to come out and be a part of the study outside of the research.
22:38 Yeah. Yeah. So who’s the oldest in your study right now?
22:43 Uh, the oldest person in our study is 104.
22:45 Wow. And so she’s, and, and, and that person’s been with you for 10 years, 10 plus years?
22:52 She has not? She enrolled, I forget what age, but, um, it’s, she says she’s only just been with us for a few years. Um, so the rule is you have to be over age 80 when you enroll. Um, and then, but you can enroll anytime after age 80. So we have some individuals who will call us on their 80th birthday and say “I’m ready, I’m at the right age” and then you know, other individuals who hear about us and, uh, you know, enroll at age 99 and 100. And so we take all comers and in that regard. So, you know, that’s truly been remarkable to hear about, you know, the individual who has 104 and hearing about the experiences of, um, her first telephone to electricity to just so many experiences that we don’t think about in our daily life and take for granted in many ways in our daily life, um, be able to, to learn from her and the others in the program.
23:48 I don’t know if you know this, but I’m curious, do most of your superagers, are they still living independently or do, is there a mix? Do they live some live in, you know, assisted living or, or what does that look like?
24:01 Yeah, there’s really a wide variety. Um, we have individuals who are living in their, in their homes. We even have a, we have a super ager couple, so husband and wife who both are involved in our research. Um, we have a superagers who by choice are living with their, their kids and grandkids. And, um, you know, one of them tells a funny story about how well, you know, my grandkids, I try to stay relevant and you know, they don’t know much about Franklin and Elanor Roosevelt. So I have to ask things about, you know, is chance the rapper or Taylor swift coming to town.
24:37 Oh my goodness.
24:39 You know, I think that’s another important thing to think about, right? So especially when you’re age of 104, or 95, there may not be people on a regular basis that you’re interacting with now who are from your same decade. You should. Yeah. Yeah. And so the ability to really adapt and, um, relate with individuals, you know, who individuals who are in very different generations from you is, um, is quite an impressive and, um, and, and potentially an important element too. So.
25:12 Yeah. I mean, we, we’ve, a lot of studies have shown that that generational gap, relationships between those themselves are, are beneficial. Yeah. It’s funny that, so I’m sitting here thinking, I might, you know, this, our whole project started by me really, um, uh, analyzing my dad’s life. My Dad just turned 91. I’m pretty sure he’s a super ager. I don’t know. I’m going to have to figure out if he wants to donate his brain. I’m not sure about that. Um, but uh, and get him, get him tested. But the relevance thing and staying relevant, I, I always tell a story laugh about him. You know, he asked me one day, it was on my phone. He asked me if I was twixting someone. I said, I said, what is twixting? And did you know he had gotten Twitter tweeting and texting all wrapped up into what you know, but he knew what he was saying. He was trying, he was definitely trying.
26:04 So could be the next best thing you twixting it sounds right.
26:08 Exactly. It sounds kind of fun, doesn’t it? So I don’t want to keep you, I know you are a super busy, this is a long time to set get set up. So we, we just appreciate you taking the time to talk with us about all of this. Tell me what is coming up in the future for your super aging study? I think you recently, I don’t know how more, how recent that was, but you’ve gone under a new funding for the next, for the next roll out or the next 10 years.
26:38 Sure. Yeah. So the way that funding works through the national institutes of health is, um, we apply for grants and they, it can be funded in up to five year bins. And so we’re just wrapping up, em a five year ban and we have applied for funding for the next five years. So we have our fingers and toes and are hoping for the best and then that application. Um, and there’s lots of exciting things coming down the pike that I really hope we get to do. And, and one of them is, um, using new mathematical approaches to look at the imaging data that we get from individuals while they’re alive. And so we use something called a graph theory approach. Um, and so there’s no need to get into all the details, but we’re excited about that and the new mechanisms that it might identify. We also have specialized study, uh, following up on some of our genetic findings and trying to better probe and understand their relevance. Um, and so just say a couple words about that. Um, that we don’t think of genetics anymore as, oh, rats, I picked the wrong parents, but instead, you know, jeans and code for proteins and then proteins have functions and proteins are druggable. So if you identify a gene and it’s relevant protein, then that’s something that can potentially be actionable rather than just saying, oh, rats, I don’t have right genetic pool.
28:03 Pulled the short straw.
28:04 Yes, exactly. So that’s one area. And then, um, another area of research which is really critically important is understanding, um, how the diversity of findings across different races and gender and how race and gender play a role. So we plan to enroll, do a start another satellite site of superagers. We’ll have a, a large African American community of superagers that so that we can learn. Are there the findings of superagers consistent, um, across different races and ethnicities and looking specifically what are profiles that are important for women versus men. And we’re learning more and more in medicine that there are these differences that exist. And so the recommendations for medications for uh, you know, a female Caucasian female might be very different than an African American male or even then a Caucasian male. And so understanding those roles are really important. So that’s another initiative that we’re looking to follow up on.
29:08 Awesome. So exciting. It is. It’s super exciting, super aging, super exciting. But you know, the work is so important and we talk about it a lot here at five for life as the baby boomers are turning 65 at the rate of 10,000 per day by the year 2030, the majority of the population will be 65 and older. Here in the, I mean not the majority but the biggest percentage, a large percentage of that for the first time in history, the percentage of the population that will be 65 and older will be the largest percentage in the, in the population base, which is staggering in terms of its potential for impacting our health care system and, and all of this. And, and what’s really incredible about that is that if you reach the age of 65, statistically speaking right now, you’re going to live another 19 years, you know?
30:03 So if you are not prepared to be, you know, to have that longer aging experience and to do whatever you can. So super aging and finding out, because ultimately I think that your research will lead us to two things that we can do to impact our, not only our brain, but our bodies, everything throughout that aging experience. And I think that’s the biggest takeaway from an outsider looking in at what you’re doing, it is, you’re not looking at all the things that have gone wrong. It’s what are these people doing that is right, you know, so what are all the things about them that is, that are the, the good things. And then once you can find all of that stuff, then other people can go, okay, I can, I can do that.
30:58 Absolutely. I think, you know, I think you nailed it in saying that we are going to live longer on average. And so our lifespan has, uh, really picked up the pace and, um, but it’s come sort of at a cost where we’ve gotten good at a medical community at helping people live longer. But, um, we haven’t been able to keep everyone’s health span or their wellbeing, right. Keeping pace with that longevity. And so I think superagers really represented a nice balance here, a living long and living well. And so if we start thinking about that, um, as the goal and the idea, then it really changes our perspective on aging. I think it changes stigma and changes the opportunity to start to value in a better way, our elders and, um, and in a way that we’re maybe not realizing all of the potential that is, that is there and in that older population.
31:55 Yeah. Well, and it starts, you know, it starts with us. It starts with people that, you know, like I said, it’s, it’s creating a mindset and I think you’re superagers probably had it when they were in their 50s or 60s. You know, they had that mindset that they were wanted to age with optimism and they want to build those habits and take those actions. I personally don’t believe you get to be a super ager without, I mean it’s not just luck and it’s not, you know, I, I, that’s my firm belief and I think your science ultimately will prove that, that they took actions that they created habits that they, they did have, um, some traits that encouraged their, their mental cognition to be better.
32:39 Absolutely. One, I think it’s lovely the, um, there are podcasts like yours that are really emphasizing those positive aspects and trying to pull them out and make them relatable to, for others to hear about and in a way that gets them outside of scientific journals and decodes them a bit. Because the way that we have to communicate in, in those journals is not accessible to everybody.
33:01 Yeah, it is. Although we do like to read and learn about the, the why all these things work. Ultimately bottom line, if you have a list of things that say, if you do these, and if you practice these and if you take action and do these, all of these things, you’ll have a much better chance of having a better outcome. And the science is all there if you really need it. But just to have that, you know, little check list is really beneficial and everybody can can look at it and learn from it, can access it. But we do appreciate the science behind it. I know, like I said, I’ve just sort of like, I will just be envious from afar. Um, your not only your great work but um, all the fantastic relationships that you’re building and the things that you’re sharing there at Northwestern. They’re so important for many, many reasons and we just appreciate you taking the time. We’re going to link to your information in our show notes so people can learn more. Um, and you know, it’s an important thing for everybody to just, like Angela said, it’s, you know, we can put it into layman’s terms, but, um, what you’re doing and how you’re impacting the scope of aging is very important and we just appreciate it.
34:19 Oh, well thank you so much and I just, I appreciate the opportunity.
34:22 Yeah, thanks so much.
34:23 Thank you. Thanks for listening to the live happier, longer podcast. Now it’s time to move, learn, share, give and let go. Five daily actions to make the rest of your life the best of your life. See you next week.
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